How Roma Contribute to the Processes of Defence and Restoration of Ukraine and Stand for their Right

The most vulnerable group. The most stereotyped and stigmatised group. A group which preferss not to be open about their ethnic origin, for fear of negative consequences, nay even risks to life and limb. The Romani people.

Throughout history, the Roma community have been persecuted almost in every country. This is the second ethnic group, after Jews, that was mass exterminated by the Nazis. After the Second World War, however, the situation has become better in a number of European countries. What about Ukraine?

Romanis in Ukraine are an integral part of the Ukrainian society as they have their unique cultural heritage which has been preserved inside the country for centuries. Notwithstanding persecutions, wars, and globalisation, Romanis have played an important role in historic events, particularly during the Second World War when many of them took up arms to fight Nazi Germany. Today, regardless of the existing anti-Gypsyism, many Romanis have enlisted to defend Ukraine as part of the Ukraine Defence Forces and are now actively contributing to the processes of rebuilding Ukraine during martial law and will continue to do so once the war ends. The Roma activists are lobbying the interests of the Romani communities within Ukraine, in order to make sure that these communities have all the rights as fully empowered Ukrainian citizens in the course of reconstruction and rebuilding of Ukraine.

How the Romanis are contributing to the defence and restoration of Ukraine? What kind of pressing issues does the cause of Roma integration face? How can social attitude towards the Romani minority change? These and other issues are discussed herein in our interview with Volodymyr Yakovenko, Director of ARKA — The Youth Agency for Roma Culture Advocacy.  

«Roma volunteer, they give shelter to internally displaced persons, they donate. They do whatever they can, same as other citizens»

– NGO ARСA is tending to the needs of the Romani youth. How correct it is, actually, to address Romani youth separately from the Ukrainian youth? And how vulnerable the Romani youth is to stereotypes? How integrated it is into society?

– I am afraid I cannot agree with you, as young people are more open-minded actually. They are looking around; yes, indeed, they do have some prejudice—but they are dispelling prejudice, too. As we communicate with non-Roma youth, our young people shows which phenomena are stereotypical and which views are far from reality.

There exist, however, some stereotypes in Roma environment, too, with regard to Ukrainian community and other communities. Hence, the dispelling of myths is a two-way street.

Our organisation, though, is a youth organisation, so we focus on young people, first of all. To a certain extent, we are talking about people who have expressively clear appearance and may be visually identified as Roma. This is why these people may face difficulties with education and/or employment. And this is why they are unlikely to be open about the fact that they belong to the Roma minority.

I mean, if a person has dark hair, brown eyes, dark eyebrows, that person will likely be asserting he or she is a representative of Moldovan diaspora, has Greek, Romanian, Armenian origin—anything but Roma. Because the statement «I am a Romani» may negatively impact their further co-operation. And we are aware of cases when people were declined jobs, regardless of their level of qualification, or when already in the course of their employment, they were declined further prospects of co-operation and were asked to submit their notices of resignation as soon as their Romani origin became common knowledge.

«Romas are accustomed to democratic processes. So they have approved of Ukraine’s exit from the Soviet Union, of the demolition of the communist regime, and the transition to democracy» 

 

– Ukraine has been independent for over thirty years. Roma have inhabited Ukraine for over 600 years. How do these things correlate? How has Roma attitude changed from before 1991 to post-independence years? Have Roma supported the Independence Referendum? What was the Romа vote?

– Romanis are more accustomed to democratic processes, both within their communities and outside of them. So they have approved of Ukraine’s exit from the Soviet Union, of the demolition of the communist regime, and the transition to democracy. The Roma community was very optimistic about this rearrangement of society.

It is difficult to assess how actively the Roma were involved in these processes. The very process of adaptation has been taking place very smoothly in the Romani community.

In Soviet Union, there was this thing called tuneiadstvo (social parasitism or having no job) which was a punishable crime. Each and every person was required to have a job, to be employed. So were Romanis. At the same time, though, they went into commerce—or, how the Soviet system called it, speculation.

As soon as Ukraine has become independent, Roma have acquired patents entitling them to trade and have promptly switched to market economy. This was not so easy for other citizens of Ukraine who were more accustomed to state control and were more used to work within a certain fixed framework.

In the Romani community, however, all of the above processes of adaptation were taking place far easier and smoother.

– How soon did the moment come when the Roma community have started to stand up for their rights? Was it as soon as Ukraine became independent?

– Correct. In Ukraine, these processes intensified since 1991. The Soviet Union had been suppressing the processes of self-identification and self-protection. If we get back to the year 1971 when the First Roma Congress took place in London, Roma from the Soviet Union, too, were invited to participate. The Soviet Union, however, did not allow them to participate: they simply did not let the delegates out of the country. This is why the Ukrainian civil movement is lagging behind the European civil movement by about thirty years.

Hence, after 1991, there appeared an entire galaxy of Romani civil activists—whom we now quote. These were Roma artists, for instance Mikha Kazymyrenko, Ihor Krykunov, Volodymyr Zolotarenko.

One of their first steps was the effort to demand the recognition of the genocide of Roma in Ukraine during the Second World War and creating a corresponding monument to commemorate it. They did not, however, manage to install the monument at first. We are talking about the Gypsy caravan that is now standing in the Babyn Yar. It was only in 2015 that it finally found itself in Kyiv—albeit not in the same place where executions by firing squads actually took place. 

The authorities could not understand why was it necessary to install the monument to Romanis, although—as researchers confirm—the first victims who perished in Babyn Yar were residents of five Gypsy encampments.

But now the monument is finally there. And this is our little victory.

– When we are talking about Roma who are fighting for the independence and democracy, what is it that we mean by it? The independence of Ukraine in general or the independence of the Romа community?

– The Romanis do not separate themselves from Ukraine, as we have no other country to belong to. We are Ukrainian citizens.

When we are talking about the struggle for independence, we mean the Independence of Ukraine. When we are talking about the struggle for democracy, for the European values, we mean all of that in the context of Ukraine.

Let us ask ourselves: who Ukrainians actually are? That image will be comprised of many details. There are different Ukrainians. With white and dark skin, speaking Ukrainian and Roma, adhering to Eastern Orthodoxy, to other Christian denominations, or downright atheists. And, among those different Ukrainians, we can also find Ukrainians of Roma origin. That’s how it is.

– What kind of European values are we actually talking about? What do Roma civil activists stand for?

– First and foremost, we are talking about human rights. That is, an individual and his or her rights are paramount. Not how it was back in the USSR, where the Union was paramount, then went the Party, and then everything else.

Romanis stand for the values of the European Union, where an individual, a person is priority number one. Other values bifurcate therefrom, specifically: the rule of law, when a person feels protected.

«Romanis experience the same problems as other citizens. But they find it far more difficult to resolve those problems, in view of a number of factors, including discrimination» 

– What if we take another point of view. Everyone wants to have rights but people tend to forget about obligations. One of the requirements of the European Union is to bring down the level of corruption, to make sure business is transparent, and a number of other requirements. How deeply do the Roma share those views? Are they ready to comply with obligations as well as enjoy rights?

– First of all, I would like to say that Roma think of themselves as of responsible citizens. We could see corroboration of this at the very beginning of the full-scale war. Together with other Ukrainians, Roma enlisted as AFU soldiers, they volunteered, they gave shelter to refugees both in Ukraine and abroad.

Secondly, there is a Roma Strategy adopted by Ukraine. Due to this, we tend to hear accusations of a special treatment. Why is this the case with Romanis. The answer is simple. Roma are one of the most discriminated ethnic minorities in Ukraine.

When we are talking about the improvement of the life of Roma, resolving certain issues they face, we can extrapolate this and talk about issues and difficulties of the entire society, as Roma experience the same problems as other citizens. Resolving the issues of Roma, however, is a far trickier task due to a number of issues, including discrimination. So as soon as we resolve the issues of Roma, we shall be able to improve the situation for other ethnic groups, too.

This is why people should understand that when we discuss issues faced by Ukrainian Romas, we are also talking about issues of the Ukrainian society in general.As far as fighting corruption as other EU requirements are concerned. Those are issues that concern not only Roma but all Ukrainians. As I have already said, Roma do not think of themselves as separate from Ukrainians.

If we resolve problems with corruption, make sure legal counsel is accessible, and rights of Ukrainian citizens are protected, this will automatically mean that issues and problems faced by Roma and other Ukrainian citizens, too, are resolved.

«Roma, together with Ukrainians and other ethnicities, are countering the Russian aggression»

 – To a certain extent, the perception of the entire Romа community depends upon the perception of its individual representatives. More often than not, these are marginalised personalities whom we can see as they panhandle at railway stations. And it is our opinion that such an image negatively impacts the perception of Roma by the society as it creates stereotypes. The reality, however, is different. On the one hands, lots of Roma are nowadays serving in the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Others, just like all Ukrainians, are working and donating. So how can we change these stereotypes about the Roma community? How can we show that Roma are an integral part of our society. After all, the stereotypic image of a panhandler/fortuneteller from the train station does not characterise the entire ethnic group. 

– Yes, Roma plus railway station plus panhandling is perhaps the most common stereotype. Let me quote one Roma civil society activist who has said that one cannot judge the greatness of Ukrainian culture by the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk. There are people like that in any society, but they do not represent the peak achievements of that society’s culture. Same applies to Roma. Yes, indeed, there are certain people who are panhandling or whatever. That kind of activity, however, is not an indicator of the Romani culture. That is an individual choice of any person, regardless of his or her ethnic origin.

How many non-Roma homeless Ukrainians can we encounter at the railway station? And can we then generalise that all Ukrainians are like that? I think not. That is an inappropriate and biased generalisation.

Secondly, lots of average Roma are really integrated into society but prefer to keep mum about their ethnicity. You may well be living next to Roma people or work alongside them, and yet never know that your colleague or your neighbour is a Romani— all due to such a biased attitude.

Let me tell you a story. There is a Roma civil activist whose appearance is not typical for her ethnic group as it does not correspond with stereotypic patterns. In her childhood years, however, she did her best to never stay alone in a classroom. She feared that if something happens, if someone loses something, if something vanishes from someone’s schoolbag, she would be suspect number one. Hence the child lived her life in fear of such things. So let me ask you: is she going to be open about her Romani origin? No she isn’t.

So the ones visible are the individual marginalised persons.

Now, as far as the military men and women are concerned. Roma, together with Ukrainians and other ethnicities, are countering the Russian aggression. Roma volunteer, they give shelter to internally displaced persons, they donate. They do whatever they can, same as other citizens. 

Likewise, plenty of Roma have enlisted into the Ukrainian Defence Forces and went to the frontline as volunteers. So today, Roma are side by side with Ukrainians and other ethnicities at ‘position zero’ (‘the frontline of the frontline’). How open are they about their origin? Do they tell other comrades in arms that they are Roma? More often than not, they don’t. And that, too, is due to stereotypes. But in no way does their origin impact the quality of accomplishment of combat missions.

For instance, there are nine volunteer Roma soldiers from a single inhabited locality in Cherkasy Province. However, they ask us not to publicise this information, not to divulge the fact that these Roma are now serving, as they know that consequences may be negative.

There are, however, other cases. Some militarymen openly admit that they are representatives of the Roma community. And we are there to tell their story.

On many occasions, Ukrainian Armed Forces have noted the fact that representatives of various ethnic groups are fighting for Ukraine. They have particularly noted the participation of Roma in the defence of our state.

Not only is this important in the context of the Roma community but also in the context of each and every ethnic group, too. There are 130 ethnic minorities living in Ukraine. They have diverse origin but all of them are Ukrainians. And what is important is not to divide but to bring them together.

– But Roma are not particularly visible in the army. We have partially discussed the reasons this may be caused by—particularly, due to fear of discrimination. There are, however, other cases. ARСA has also been preparing reports on Roma who are Defenders of Ukraine; there was a dedicated podcast, too. But we do not know how many Roma are there in the army, and how many have been killed in action. How can we change this situation and show that there is plenty of Roma in the army? After all, this would also positively impact the perception of Roma, by and large. 

– We cannot state the exact number of Roma in the army, as we do not know the exact number of Roma living in Ukraine. The most recent National Census took place back in 2001; according to it, there are approximately 48,000 Roma residing in Ukraine. However, reports by the civil sector state that there are approximately 400,000 to 500,000 Roma living in Ukraine. These are the numbers the EU refers to. The issue also consists in the fact that during official polling, people do not reveal their Romani origin.

Next, we have good stories about Roma and their representation in the army. Even the Ukrainian Defence Ministry in its posts on social networks has noted that Defenders of Ukraine also include Roma who stand for the freedom of our country.

There are positive stories covered by mass media wherein Roma state that they have not faced any discrimination in their military units—despite the fact that their comrades-in-arms did know that they were serving alongside a Roma. There are individual stories, too: when a man (even though he, as a father of three children, was exempt) nonetheless volunteered and is still at Position Zero. 

So we have examples of both discrimination and acceptance—both in everyday life and in society, by and large. The army is but a reflection of the general attitude and perception by the broader society. 

That said, it is difficult to provide an exact statement on the number of Roma who have given their life as Defenders of Ukraine. Firstly, the state does not publicise exact numbers. Secondly, this is likewise related to the issue of Romani visibility which we had already mentioned above. Let me reiterate: many people keep mum about their origin. Roma, however—same as militarymen of other origin—are indeed killed in action in the battlefield. We have published information about the fallen heroes on ARСA social network pages.

– What if we step back a little and take a dive into history. Russian military aggression against Ukraine had started back in 2014, when Crimea was annexed and part of other territories was occupied. This is when the ATO/OOS operation began… Where were Romanis in this story? What was their position?

– They were similarly engaged in all of the above processes. Let us recall 2018 when there was a wave of attacks against Romani compact settlements in various regions of Ukraine, including Kyiv. Following that, a round table was organised, attended by representatives of Roma who were then serving in the Ukrainian Armed Forces and were fighting in the frontline.

Within that round table, they expressed their views and stated that this kind of violence was unacceptable, as it destabilises our country and creates division between Roma and non-Romanis. At the same time, Roma are fighting for Ukrainian freedom and independence.

Romanis did not support the annexation and the occupation of the Eastern territories. And now, our position remains unchanged.

We can, of course, mention certain individuals, but there are traitors, collaborators, and separatists amongst any other ethnic groups.

At the onset of the full-scale Russian invasion, ARСA teamed up with other Romani NGOS and wrote an open letter to the Ukrainian Government. In it, we expressed the position of Roma and of the civil sector. The point was that Roma consider themselves to be an integral part of Ukraine. There was an appeal to Russia, too. We emphasised the fact that Roma, as an ethnic group that was exterminated by the Nazis during WW2, are entitled to provide their judgement on the matter of existence or non-existence of fascists in any government and are entitled to state if there is a fascist regime in place or if there isn’t one. And we can clearly state that there is nothing like that in Ukraine and that all the Russian narratives are false. We support the integrity of Ukraine; we support the sovereignty of Ukraine, and we stand for preservation of Ukraine as an independent and democratic country.

“As we are discussing integration, the inclusion of Romanis, we mean inclusion of Romanis into social, state-consolidating processes that are taking place in the country, whereby their cultural identity is to be preserved”

– We are thus faced with another problem. Individuals try to protect themselves against bullying or issues in the workplace, hence they assimilate and renounce their identity. We very well understand why this is the case. But how can this easy way be harmful? Will the Roma people eventually dissolve in the social fabric and lose their identity?

– Yes, this is indeed a pressing issue and there indeed exists the risk of complete assimilation.

That said, we should differentiate between integration and assimilation processes. Usually, when ordinary people talk about integration, they enquire, in a sarcastic manner: «Why do Roma people live like that? Why cannot they do this and that? This is how they should live and this is what they should do».  And all of the abovemenioned «this way and that way» imply assimilation, i.e. dissolution of the Roma people.

As we are discussing integration, the inclusion of Roma, we mean inclusion of Roma into social, state-consolidating processes that are taking place in the country, whereby their cultural identity is to be preserved.

This is something we can apply to other ethnic groups, same as we do with regard to Roma.

Today, we are at war, and Ukrainians (both as the nation and as the Ukrainian ethnic group) are fighting for their existence, for the preservation of their language.

Hence, we should differentiate between inclusion, integration, and assimilation.

As far as the Roma community in Ukraine (and, broadly speaking, in Europe) is concerned, we can now observe a situation whereby the Romanis are currently pending integration; they are somewhat bifurcating from the larger group of Romanis; they assimilate.

Another issue accompanying assimilation is the vanishing of the Romani language. According to the UNESCO Calendar, the 5^th of November is the International Romani Language Day. Because the Romani language is a seriously endangered language. And there exists indeed a threat that in twenty-thirty-fifty years, fluent Romani speakers are just not going to be around.

– Yes, about that. The language. It is one of the most important aspects of self-identification of this group. How eager are Roma people to study the language? Do they view it as a necessity? How easy is it?

–  Let me note that the Roma community, its language—and hence, too, its dialects—are not uniform. Within the territory of Ukraine, there are approximately 15 subgroups of Roma, each of different origin. That is, different territories that have been the point of origin in their travel to Ukraine define what kind of religion they adhere to and which professions they prefer. 

Hence the dialects differ, so sometimes even Romanis may find it difficult to understand each other in a conversation.

The emergence of dialects is related to the borrowing of certain words from a language within whose geographic extent the particular Roma language has abidden for a protracted period of time. The Roma language has plenty of Greek, Armenian, Persian, and Romanian loanwords.

Even back in the 19^th century, with DNA tests nowhere in sight and hence no biological tracing of Roma origin was possible, have traced the path of Romas from India to Europe via language.

Realising the importance of language preservation, our organisation has teamed up with our colleagues from Kherson Roma Youth Organisation and developed an app allowing an average person to learn the basics of the Servic dialect of the Romani language.

Obviously, if we get the state support, we shall be able to achieve more— as can be corroborated by the example of other countries which we can implement in our situation. 

«To a certain extent, the state has recognised the Roma community of Ukraine as a vulnerable category of population— as Roma experience a serious problem with access to education, and we also witness violation of the rights of Romanis seeking health care and employment»

– When we are talking violation of rights, we mean basic rights, don’t we? That is, the right to vote, the right to study, the right to receive medical aid. At the same time, we do have a State Service for Ethnic Policy and Freedom of Conscience in place. What role does it play in preventing discrimination? What achievements can this organisation boast?

 – To a certain extent, the state has recognised the Roma community of Ukraine as a vulnerable category of population— as Roma experience a serious problem with access to education, and we also witness violation of the rights of Roma seeking health care, employment, and many other things.

De jure, steps are being taken to resolve these issues.  This includes, in particular, the activities of the aforementioned State Service for Ethnic Policy and Freedom of Conscience as well as the endorsement of the Roma Strategy. When it comes to implementation of designs de facto, however, it turns out that the resources of the states are quite limited.

There is, for instance, the matter of project implementation in the regions. Usually, there are provincial departments operating in the realms of education, youth, and sports. These departments also tend to Roma matters. As we can see, there is a number of components. But only two or three people are working on cases. Is this kind of workforce able to react and to grasp all issues emerging in a certain region or city? That would be physically impossible. As a result of this, we witness globally negative impact upon implementation of certain measures—not only ones related to Romas.

Now, the war has taken its toll upon all realms of life, and so priorities have changed. That said, even before the full-scale Russian invasion, the situation had been not particularly better, either. 

«The EU highlights the Romani minority as one of the most vulnerable communities; a community facing serious challenges in the process of assimilation»

– One of Ukraine’s aspirations is to join the European Union. We cannot be sure when would that happen. We do, however, trust that our state will eventually take that step. This does, in a number of ways, depend upon the resolution of Roma issues and issues of ethnic minorities in general. So let us dwell upon this. How does this work? What exactly should Ukraine do with regard to ethnic communities in order to become a full-fledged EU member?

 – In order to join the EU, Ukraine has to accomplish seven assignments, if I am not mistaken. Four of these, in particular, concern the rights of ethnic minorities.  And the European Union is very serious about observing all of these requirements. The EU highlights the Romani minority as one of the most vulnerable communities; a community facing serious challenges in the process of assimilation.

One might jokingly assert that Ukraine’s EU accession process is considerably dependent upon our country’s attitude towards Romanis. But let us get serious: we have been through similar processes as we were petitioning for a visa-free EU access for our citizens. After all, part of the abovementioned assignments pertained to the improvement of the situation of the Roma minority.

Then, as we recall, the Romа Strategy 2020 was adopted. How it is actually being implemented is another question. Certain clauses have been reduced to mere formality and have never been put into practice. That said, premises stipulated in the said strategy have been applicable and feasible.

– Now to the Roma Strategy. What are its roots? What does it stipulate? And why is it that Roma have got their ‘dedicated’ document? 

– The Roma strategy was adopted following a demand by the EU and its adoption was one of the prerequisites for granting Ukrainian citizens visa-free entry to the EU. This document, however, was actually adopted back in 2013. At that time, it was viewed as a mere formality; no one was going to comply with it, as there was no budget allocated for the implementation of the said strategy. Then, the Euromaidan followed, and the issue of discrimination of Romanis shifted into the background.

It was not until 2015 that they started to draw a road map for the implementation of the said strategy, and it was not until 2017 that this strategy became more or less operable. In 2018, hardly anyone cared about the strategy as the government was focused on the upcoming elections.

The new strategy does not provide for what we face today: martial law, military action, increase in the number of internally displaced persons and a hike in emigration. Roma civil activists keep pointing to this issue. The main thing, however, is that the new strategy (same as the old one) lacks funds to support it. Thus, it is de facto impossible to implement this strategy.

– Still, let us be more specific. What does a strategy entail? What kind of events does it include? Are those festivals, fairs, or what? What kind of activities does the state offer in order to improve the situation of Romas in Ukraine? Now, we are only hearing about abstract notions like: let us do something we do not have funds for.

– It is quite difficult to formulate a strategy for any specific action to be taken. The strategy is quite global and comprehensive. The key word it consists is to facilitate. To facilitate education, to facilitate employment.

Facilitating means the following thing. When, for instance, parents bring a child to school and ask officials to enrol him or her, as parents are illiterate and know nothing about the entire procedure, what do they hear in response? «There is a wallpaper over there; it contains all the necessary information».

– But that is not facilitation at all, is it? That is lack of care, if not precluding.

No, that actually isn’t. When they tell people to go and read the wallpaper information—that is actually facilitation. If you get any kind of a leaflet—that, too, is facilitation. Any kind of action that does not go against your cause and is not in contravention of acting legislation may never be construed as non-facilitation. After all, no one has declined to offer a service. No one actually rejected the child as a school pupil.

We have, of course, demanded certain concrete action and wording. We have demanded that our proposals be discussed and we have offered our options for resolving issues. For instance, if there are no funds to back a strategy, let us approach the matter from another standpoint. There are state-supported programmes already in place, backed by funding, such as: programmes aimed at opening and operating a business. We can include certain quotas for Romas into one of these programme—modest ones, like 0.5%. Unfortunately, we have failed to gain support on this matter.

If we get back to what we started with, we should also demand the recognition of Roma genocide and the installation of a monument commemorating the murdered Romanis. Ukraine is one of the four countries in the world that has officially recognised the 2^nd of August as the Roma Genocide Remembrance Day. There is an Executive Decree of the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine stipulating that commemorative events should be held on August 2^nd on multiple levels: ranging from the nationwide level and down to local levels. De facto, however, this decree is not being complied with. We fail to see any mass events or any kind of event to commemorate this day.

So, by and large: had legislation been strictly being complied with in Ukraine, we would perhaps need not have any additional Roma-focused strategies in place, nor any special laws on anti-Semitism etc etc. After all, Ukrainian legislation and Ukrainian Constitution may be perfect but worthless if not enforced and if society fails to comply with those legal premises.

That is what Romas strive for (and non-Romas, too): that legislation must be enforced and complied with. 

“Inclusion of Romanis into social processes must be in place on all levels”

– That is, state regulation can actually resolve the issue of Roma inclusion into social processes?

– That is but one of the instruments available. Such inclusion must take place at all levels. Have you ever heard children being told that gypsies are going to kidnap them? I have.

This is what we are countering at the moment. When a child is born, it is free of any stereotypes and/or negative opinions presuming that this person is good, and that one is bad. It is then that their formation and outlook becomes dependent upon what kind of information these children receive from their parents, educators, teachers, mass media, and their environment. Children absorb all of that and then relay it over in their adulthood.

This is not only with regard to Romanis but with regard to everything in general. If we want to have a tidy surroundings, we should teach our children to throw rubbish into the rubbish bin and not ditch it onto the sidewalk. If we want the elderly to be treated respectfully, we should accustom kids to adhere to such behaviour from their early years. If we expect people to have an unbiased approach towards Romanis or other ethnic minorities, such tolerance should likewise be fostered since childhood.

Now, the state is not engaged in the processes of upbringing. This is an exclusively parental responsibility. In my opinion, however, there should be a certain state-mandated policy in place that would help shape awareness and bring up polite, respectful, humane, and sensitive citizens. 

– Considerable role in the resolution or exacerbation of issues as well as in the shaping of an outlook is played by the mass media. How would you assess the reporting on Roma matters in mass media? Some five or six years ago Romanis were depicted in a stereotypical fashion: the ethnic origin was emphasised. How does the situation look nowadays? Has it changed? Has it become better or worse?

– I would like to differentiate between social networks and conventional mass media.

Our ARСA has conducted a study into hate speech across social networks. We have analysed Telegram channels, Tik-Tok, Instagram, YouTube, and Facebook. Regretfully, we have found a good deal of hate speech targeting Romas.  First and foremost, these include dehumanisation of Romas, comparing them to animals, open calls for violence or coded inscriptions, for instance, «1488», the meaning of which is common knowledge.

What exacerbates the situation is the fact that we have not found any tools to regulate hate speech over social networks in Ukraine. Other European countries (Germany, for instance) has such levers in place. 

This is from my personal experience: on Instagram, when you report content with drastic expressions of Romaphobia, anti-Gypsyism, calls for violence, you eventually just stop seeing that page (you become unable to visit it) but the post itself does not vanish. That is, the discriminative content is just hidden from the person who is disturbed by it.  That is weird and not logical at all.

Besides, social platforms have now become an important player in the information space. Now, any person can create his or her own channel and broadcast any kind of narratives.

Now to conventional mass media. The quality of their reporting depends upon a number of factors. Firstly, journalists putting together a material, editors releasing material to be broadcast or published on their timeline are people with their own biases. And these stereotypical convictions of theirs are ultimately being broadcast in their articles, reports, columns etc.

We do, however, have certain standards in place stipulating that mass media outlets should cover events in an unbiased manner, with no stress being made on the ethnic origin, unless we deal with hate crimes.

We have had meetings with representatives of the State Committee for TV and Radio Broadcasting and have discussed these issues and how can we regulate them. 

«Our objective is to include the Romа community into social processes taking place in our country and to overcome stereotypes»

– Let us discuss Roma civil activism today. What is its goal? What are the key areas of activity? What are its priorities and objectives?

– The Roma civil activity nowadays is engaged and focused on inclusion of Romas into social processes and preserve their cultural identity at the same time. Because when Ukrainian officials talk about integration or inclusion of Romas, they usually mean assimilation; they do not feel the difference between these notions.

Another aspect on the present-day agenda is the inclusion of Romas into he processes of Ukrainian reconstruction. This is not only about the implementation of the Roma Strategy but about all social processes in general. Because how can we discuss the elimination of discrimination if discriminated groups are not included in the processes of discussion and decision-making? How can we make Romas visible if no one knows about our human rights advocacy?

When we discuss the reconstruction of Ukraine, we mean not only physical reconstruction, repair, restoration of physical spaces. We also mean mental reconstruction of the entire society—as, after the war ends, we should see new Ukrainians with a new manner of thinking, aware of the fact that all Ukrainian citizens are united—diverse but united—and united we stand.

– Let us suppose the war ends. and Ukraine wins it. What role will the Romas play afterwards? What should happen so that, in 10 or 15 years, you come to say that you have reached your objective and that you are happy about it?

– At the very onset of the war we have seen how united Ukraine has become. And I would wish that, once we win this war, we remember this: we are stronger together.

We are faced with enough pressure from the outside that intends to divide our nation in a number of ways. So we should all come together: families, neighbours, and the country in general. And together, we should march towards our common objective: a united, sovereign, independent, unitary Ukraine. That is, all that is enshrined in our Constitution.

What do I expect to happen over the coming years? We should preserve our country, we should achieve a quality level of life for our people, we should create conditions in which Ukrainians stop leaving the country, we should increase our birth rate…

By the way, the issue of returning people from abroad will, in my opinion, be a pressing one. Many people state that once our borders open, we will see another wave of emigration.

Nowadays, many Roma are abroad, too. And they are impacted by the same general mood as other Ukrainians are experiencing. And they face the same problems. The thing is that, for Romas, resolving these issues may be more challenging than it is for others. These challenges are caused by a number of reasons: discrimination, non-acceptance by the society etc…

This has been clearly visible even during trips abroad. A large family is travelling with their father. And here comes a real check on the border. A proper shakedown. They demand that the man proves that those children are indeed his. Does everyone go through something like that?

So, after our victory, the state is going to be faced with an incredibly difficult task: how to motivate people to return home. Many of them would have to start their lives from scratch: to find a place to live, to find a job, to create convenient dwelling conditions. Some may have already lost their usual circle of acquaintances, their social milieu. Whereas they have already settled abroad and have solved their issues there. So what would motivate them to return? We should be working on resolving this issue right now.

Now, about the role or Romas in all that. Our ethnic group has been living in Ukraine for approximately 600 years. That alone testifies to the fact that Romas are an integral part of our society.

Over the years, Romas have absorbed a part of Ukrainian culture whereas ethnic Ukrainians have tapped into Roma customs, traditions, language.

Our goal, therefore, is to include the Roma community into social processes taking place in our country, to combat stereotypes impacting the perception of Romas as full-fledged Ukrainian citizens. Once we achieve these goals, I shall be able to tell you that I am completely happy. 

 

Illustrator: Kateryna Bandus

The material was created with the support of Media Lifeline Ukraine