«Romanis, same as other minorities, must be involved in the reconstruction of Ukraine»

In Berlin, an International Conference on Reconstruction of Ukraine was held and, as we know, some fifteen hundred NGOs had applied for participation in it. Only seventy of those applications were approved and took part in the event. Three of those are Romani organisations, and one of them is our ARKA. Why was it important to take part in this conference? Let us hear from Volodymyr Yakovenko, Director of ARKA, in his interview for Polish Radio Ukraine.

—Greetings, Volodymyr. In Berlin, an International Conference on Reconstruction of Ukraine was held and, as we know, some fifteen hundred NGOs had applied for participation in it. Only seventy of those applications were approved and took part in the event. Three of those are Romani organisations, I am aware of the fact that your organisation—ARKA Youth Organisation for the Advocacy of Romani Culture—also participated in this conference. Please tell us why is it, in your opinion, that the participation in the reconstruction and restoration of Ukraine is important and which major messages have been voiced within this event?

– You are absolutely right when you say that approximately fifteen hundred organisations applied to participate in this event but only seventy of those were approved, and only three of those were Romani organisations. That would be our organisation, ARKA Youth Agency for the Advocacy of Romani Culture, the Chirikli Romani Woman Charity, and another Romani organisation, Holos Romni.

The road to receive those invitations was quite challenging, as there was a lot of competition among NGOs willing to participate. Then there is the fact that we have actually not received that much of support from the Ukrainian Government as far as Romani sector engagement in this event was concerned. We did, however, receive such support from abroad.

In our particular case it was the German government that helped, as the conference in question took place in Berlin and it was interested in the representation of different strata of population, representatives of minorities, ethnic and other minorities from Ukraine. Because, if we are talking about reconstruction, we should not only include physical reconstruction (I mean the restoration of certain physical spaces or buildings) but also mental reconstruction. Because, after all, we are now building a new country which must correspond with the principles of equal rights, principles of democracy which are the values of the European Union. Which is the place we are headed. And hence it is important to engage all representatives, all minorities to the reconstruction of Ukraine.

Photo (left to right): Martin Mülleck, Specialist for Policy Matters, General Directorate for Neighbourhood Policy and Negotiations on Enlargement of European Commission, Volodymyr Yakovenko, Executive Director of ARKA.

– Your presence in this conference is a chance to introduce your position and your opinion. If I asked you to take three major theses pertaining to the protection of the rights of Romanis which you would like to bring to the society in Ukraine, to the European society, and to the global society, what would these theses be?

– Well in fact, as far as the participation in the conference is concerned, let me reiterate that we had conducted negotiations several months ago, and that it was the German party that initiated the engagement of the Romani civil sector to the participation in this conference. We were offered a possibility to conduct a panel discussion for Romani civil organisations whereby we would be able to table important issues related to Romanis currently living in Ukraine. So far, however, the Ukrainian party has not endorsed this idea of our German partners, the German Foreign Office. Hence, we did not have a platform where we could express our views.

At the same time, we adhere to the message stating that, firstly, there is a Strategy for Protection and Integration of Romanis into Ukrainian society which is in place in Ukraine. Unfortunately, this Strategy is quite defective. It had been developed at the request of the European Union but was later not adapted for wartime. It has a lot of drawbacks, so we insist that it be adapted.

The second thing we try to further is the opinions of Romani NGOs which we collect. We have put together a sort of a white paper wherein Romani NGOs express their stance on the situation of the Romani minority in Ukraine and on the further status of Romanis in Ukraine.

And the third message is that Romanis, same as other minorities, must be involved in the reconstruction of Ukraine. This is about actual physical reconstruction, as there exist plenty of issues here. For instance, as far as physical reconstruction is concerned, there were cases when Romani homes were hit by rockets, and there were casualties. There was, for instance, a case in Zaporizhzhia Province when the air defence forces shot down a rocket and then fragments of it fell down on a house where Romanis lived. A young 34-year old woman was killed, leaving behind three children and their father. The house was completely destroyed. When the surviving members of the family tried to address the authorities with a request to help them rebuild their home, they faced a situation whereby they did have documents with a title to the land but it turned out that the house they had been living in had never been legalised as a proper residential building. De facto, though, that was a house where people lived. Hence, the family would not be able to receive compensation for property destroyed. Such situations are not unique, nor do they happen to Romanis only. They do indeed happen to Ukrainians and other citizens of Ukraine, too. So we need to regulate these matters this way or another.

Here is another message of ours: that Ukraine is a multi-national state; that all Ukrainians, regardless of their origin, are equal, and all of them must be equally involved in the process of restoration of Ukraine.

Photo (left to right): Volodymyr Yakovenko, Executive Director of ARKA, Oleksii Makieev, Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary Ambassador of Ukraine in Germany, Natali Tomenko, Deputy Director of ARKA

– Another thing I would like to ask you about, Volodymyr, is the Ukrainian situation with the protection of Romani minority rights in Ukraine, as compared to the situation abroad, particularly in Europe. About Ukraine: how many Romanis there are living in Ukraine today? And the next question would be, as far as I know, the Romani community is divided into several group, is it not?

– Yes, that is correct. The specific answer depends upon our standpoint. State authorities refer to the 2001 Census which states that there are approximately 48,000 Romanis living in Ukraine. However, twenty-three years have passed since 2001. Hence, the statistical information is changing because people move, the birth rate changes, the death rate changes etc etc etc. So this number is way outdated.

Secondly, it is also outdated due to the fact that the manner in which that 23 year old census was conducted is very, very questionable. Were people told that they were free to declare their ethnic origin? This would not only pertain to Romanis but to all ethnicities in general. After all, 2001 was only decade away from the demise of the Soviet Union. People were still somewhat afraid to declare their ethnic origin, as they knew not if that would harm them in some way.

We had the next Census scheduled for the early 2020, if I am not mistaken. However, due to certain internal processes which were taking place here in Ukraine, it was then postponed several times. Now, of course, with the ongoing war, no one is going to conduct it. According to unofficial data (that is, according to NGOs), there are 400,000 to 500,000 Romanis living in Ukraine. These are also the numbers referred to by the European Union. I can also quote another number which, according to the information provided by NGOs who have been accepting refugees from Ukraine, including Romanis, they provide information stating that, at the very beginning, approximately 100k Romanis have left Ukraine during the hot phase of war.

– Are you talking about the very beginning of the full-scale war?

– Yes, that is correct. So, as we can see, this does not correlate very much with the state statistics by at least 2x. The numbers just do not add up. And so, as far as this Romani strategy which I had already mentioned is concerned, we used to talk a lot about a national census which must be conducted so that we have official statistics which the state authorities, the NGO sector, and the European Union would then be able to use. And then, once again, out of my personal experience, I can say that certain regions which have to put the same Romani strategy in place, are manipulating the 2001 Census numbers, referring to the fact that there are no Romanis living in their regions or that there resides a negligible number of Romanis, hence they do not deem it relevant to devise any regional plans for implementation of the said strategy.

– Copy that. So, if we do not know how many Romanis there are in a certain province, how can we devise any plans or programmes? Tell me please, how were Romanis leaving the country since the outbreak of the full-scale war?

– Romanis fall in line with the same tendencies as do other citizens of Ukraine. But the thing is that they find it way harder to get justice and protect their rights. Same as other Ukrainian citizens, Romanis have migrated to the nearest neighbouring countries. That would be Moldova, Romania, and Poland.

– As far as Poland is concerned, do we have any estimate numbers as of how many Romanis are currently in Poland as refugees?

– Unfortunately, I do not operate such numbers; I do know, however, that a lot of Romanis were sheltered by Poland since the outbreak of war. After the conditions and regulations for refugees in Poland have started to change for Ukrainian citizens, Romanis fell in line with the same tendencies and have since moved to Germany, Ireland etc.

– Like to those countries where welfare payments are heftier?

— That is correct.

– If we compare the attitude to Romanis and the protection of the rights of Romanis in Ukraine as opposed to European countries (Poland, for instance), do you feel the difference? What are the tendencies? What is the most noticeable? Can we talk about certain differences?

– As far as discrimination is concerned, we may well say that it is roughly the same in the everyday life. Whenever Romanis address any state institutions in any European country (say, in Poland or Germany) as compared with Ukraine, we can witness a considerably lower level of discrimination—at least according to those monitorings that are conducted by our European colleagues. We can also see a lower level of discrimination and more possibilities to protect our rights abroad. In Ukraine, unfortunately, the everyday perception of Romanis impacts on them when Romanis, say, address Ukrainian state institutions for some kind of help, advice etc. The negative and stereotype-driven attitude also impacts the provision of state-mandated services. Nothing like that is noted in Europe.

– Tell us please, where does this negative and stereotype-driven originate from and how can we deal with it? How can we counter it? How can we take these stereotypes out of our conscience? I mean out of the conscience of both Ukrainian and European societies? Do you see a recipe?

– Yes, there is a recipe. In our society, when people do not know something about a certain ethnic minority, they begin guessing and imagining things. And then, on the basis of those guesses and imaginations, there are a lot of stereotypes—negative stereotypes.

– So, what you try to say is that when there is too little information about a certain ethnic group, a certain community, this vacuum instantly begins to fill with something invented, something imagined?

– Yes, and so, consequently, the new generations grow up in this disinformation. Once again, I can present examples. We have all heard little children who were told: if you misbehave, or go somewhere you shouldn’t, the Gypsies will kidnap you. And thus, from an early age, children are given this negative perception of the Romani community. Later, over the years, this negative of the grownup people stays with them, and so emerges this negative stereotype-driven perception of the Romani community.

Or, let us say another thing: that the Romanis steal children or steal something else... The Romani community is associated only with these negative things. Although, once you begin to logically untangle all those stereotypes, all of them largely fall apart. Hence, in my opinion, the recipe to overcome these stereotypes towards certain ethnic minorities or certain people with different background, different colour of skin, is education. Education both at home and within a certain state-devised framework of upbringing. Because as of the moment, the situation looks like the state has just stepped aside from the upbringing process.

Say, school is only into education but not into upbringing of children, not into furnishing them with understanding of the fact that people are different but have equal rights and that one should not discriminate by features, by gender, by skin colour, and so on, and so forth. I mean, there should be a state policy in the realm of upbringing of children in the atmosphere of diversity. Because, in the 21st century (as I have already mentioned in one of my earlier interviews), most countries are not mono-ethnic. There should be a state strategy in place to bring up children as future citizens. I mean, the state should understand what kind of citizens do we want to have in five to ten years.

– Yes, citizens with equal rights and respect towards the rights of others. I would now like to get back to the conference in Berlin on the topic of reconstruction and rebuilding of Ukraine. The wish of Romani community to participate in the processes of post-war reconstruction. We know that nowadays, there are plenty of Romanis who defend Ukraine as soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Do you have a number? How many Romanis have taken up arms to defend Ukraine? And here’s the second question, about the processes of restoration and reconstruction. As far as we can understand, the development of programmes is already underway at the moment. How possible it is to join these programmes, so that in the future, Romani organisations willing and entitled to participate in the reconstruction and the renewal of Ukraine would be able to actually join this process?

– As far as the exact number is concerned, it is difficult to say as, once again, there is no statistical data. So we address various NGOs for information. There are 105 NGOs in Ukraine. About 40 of these are more or less active nationwide. Other organisations are those mostly operating locally.

Romani activists are not only engaged in the Armed Forces of Ukraine but also take an active civil stance; they volunteer, give shelter to refugees, and help ordinary citizens. This is a principal position: to focus not only on Romanis but to help anyone who needs help.

On the other hand, we have tried to gather such statistics on Romanis who are AFU soldiers. It is important that the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine notes that representatives of different ethnic minorities serve in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Case in point: they made posts on social networks about Romanis in the AFU.

I myself can tell you that even Romanis who have 3+ children (exempt from the mobilisation) have joined the AFU. We have seen such cases and we try to shed light on them. At the same time, though, some representatives of the Romani minority try to conceal their ethnic origin, as due to this everyday discrimination, due to everyday stereotypes, they know not how this might end for them. We have had a case when nine Romani lads from one inhabited locality went and joined the AFU. But when we tried to make a report on this, the boys asked us not to put too fine a point on this, not to make their origin a big thing of our report, as they did not know how their comrades in arms would perceive that, what kind of consequences there would be.

– So are there indeed so many stereotypes in the people’s thinking that even Romanis do not wish to admit their belonging to their ethnic group?

– Yes, that is indeed so. And then there are security matters in place, too, as even in the prewar period Romanis were indeed discriminated on the everyday level, too. We can talk a lot about that, about firing Romanis from their jobs once they have declared their origin etc. And so, Roma people take preventive measures by concealing their ethnic origin. The second question is, once again, the one referring to the Romani strategy I have already mentioned today.

That document was not designed for wartime and has not been adapted for wartime. We do understand that everything we can read there now is actually perhaps outdated now. Hence we, Romanis, the Romani civil society sector should be included into processes of reconstruction, as they are more pressing for us in our current conditions in Ukraine. And it is important for us that Romanis, that the Romani business, that the Romani entrepreneurs be engaged into these reconstruction processes. Sometimes we can hear things from the state sector, or from ordinary citizens, like why Romanis, why should we focus on Romanis.

Firstly, one of the Czech Presidents (can’t recall the name exactly) said an interesting phrase: that the attitude towards the Romanis is a litmus test on human rights. And so, when we speak about the resolution of certain Romani issues, we are talking not only about Romanis but also about the resolution of the issues of ordinary citizens, about the resolution of the issues of Ukrainians, of the Ukrainian people. The second thing is that, in order for Ukraine accede to the European Union, the EU demands that Ukraine do some homework. Some of the items on the list pertain to dealing with ethnic minorities—particularly the Romani ethnic minority and the improvement of its condition in Ukraine. Because we may well say that the Romani minority is one of the most discriminated minorities in Ukraine. That is why the European Unions draws the attention of the Ukrainian state to the cause of protection of the rights of Romanis as Ukrainian citizens. 

This material has been prepared by Polish Radio Ukraine