«The matter of non-supporting ethnic minorities should be ruled out altogether», – Oleksandr Osipov

Oleksandr Osipov, Representative of the Authorised Official Ensuring Equal Rights and Liberties, Rights of Ethnic Minorities, Political and Religious Convictions.

– It is relatively recently that you have assumed your position. I suggest we begin our communication by you explaining to us what it actually is that you do? What do your official duties consist in?

– Yes indeed, I have only recently assumed this position. Matters falling within my purview are co-ordination of the activity of the corresponding structural department of the Secretariat of Ukrainian Parliament’s Ombudsman. Or, otherwise, to keep it simple: there are nine sectors in the structure of the Ombudsman’s Office. One of these sectors focuses on equal rights, barrierlessness, accessibility, inclusiveness. It also covers the protection of the rights of ethnic minorities, communities, indigenous peoples, religious rights, fighting discrimination and human trafficking. We also deal with issues pertaining to civil and political rights. There is a team, a department which directly monitors the situation. And I am directly co-ordinating the activity of this department as my function is to protect the rights of Ukrainian citizens as far as these sectors are concerned.

In the photo: Oleksandr Osipov – Representative of the Commissioner for Equal Rights and Freedoms, National Minorities, Political and Religious Views. Photo by «ARKA» 

– You have recently returned from Transcarpathian Mukachevo where you took part in the discussion focusing on basic matters of ethnic minorities in Ukraine. What was the actual agenda?

– This was a joint meeting by representatives of the Council of Europe, Ukrainian state authorities, representatives of Ukrainian Parliament and representatives of our Office. After a week of so of joint work in Transarpathia, we have come to a conclusion that in today’s Ukraine, after the Law on Ethnic Minorities (Communities) had been passed in December 2023, the situation is quite good. I won’t lie; we did not travel all across the entire Transcarpathia—but we did visit key communities. Each and every citizen we met was listened to and heard by us. We took note of positive developments as well as of issues which representatives of ethnic minorities (communities) are still facing in this region. Our international partners have also seen the actual state of things and are ready to collaborate with us to improve the situation.

– When it comes to the Romani community, which issues, tasks, problems is your Office tackling at the moment?

– I can tell you about our pilot project which was implemented in April 2023 on the initiative of the Ukrainian Ombudsman who launched it jointly with the Council of Europe. Other institutions joined in, too: the UN Refugee Agency, Chirikli Charity Foundation, Nika Charity Foundation, as well as other Ukrainian authorities.

The idea of the project was to select a pilot community—that was Mukachevo—and to select a certain number of people whom we would document. It was determined that a pilot project would require 300 dossiers (we have so far gathered 302 dossiers). Next, we would establish causes, reasons why these particular persons had never been documented before. What was lacking? We would follow them throughout the entire process of documentation and, as we would finalise it, apart from achieving the basic result (the actual documentation of individuals), we would also come up with mechanisms helping facilitate this procedure. One of the objectives of our visit to Transcarpathia is this project. Today, we can well boast about approximately 130 persons who have received their internal passports. There are also individuals who have—finally, for the first time in their respective lives—received their Birth Certificates…

– So, processing a dossier and issuing a passport are two different things?

– Yes. To process a dossier actually means to find undocumented people. This is the kind of work we conduct jointly with communities, with mediators. This is ‘stage one’ whereby we simply gather information on where a certain individual was born, does he or she have at least any documents, at least anything at all. This is how we populate a dossier. This is something our mediators can then take and bring to lawyers, attorneys who help us, work on these papers, and then take them to Civil Registry Offices (Departments for Registration of Births, Marriages, Divorces, and Deaths) if they need to have a Birth certificate issued—or, to subdivisions of Ukrainian State Migration Service, if a passport (an internal national ID) is to be issued to an individual—or to courts of law, if a person’s identity is to be established.

– Are representatives of the Romani community eager to communicate with you? Are they eager to obtain IDs? According to the statistical data, approximately 30,000 Ukrainian Romanis have no IDs. Does the community understand why would one need an ID? How do you deal with issues like that?

– That is another matter to be discussed. Most of them do indeed realise that they do need IDs; the matter, though, has a deeper context—particularly today, during the full-scale war, when we have a lot of roadblocks, ID checks etc etc. If you have no documents to present, you are not going to get a job, you are not going to get an education, you are not going to get married.

There are some Roma families where not a single member has had an ID, ever, for many generations. Today, though, this is one of those situations which we attempt to tackle—in collaboration with the state authorities, as we try to educate people on their legal rights and raise awareness. This is something state authorities are doing today, as they have teamed up with mediators and NGOs.

– In this context, it would perhaps be a good idea to explain who those mediators actually are and what does their role consist in. There exist things that are pretty obvious for the representatives of the Romani community but not that obvious for other Ukrainians who are not aware of the particulars of this topic.

– Mediators are representatives of the Romani community who are actual middlemen  between a Romani encampment (the ethnic minority—ed.) and state authorities, NGOs etc. One should also understand that not all representatives of the Romani ethnic minority speak Ukrainian. So mediators also act as translators. Due to the lack of access to education, not all representatives of the community are able to fill in forms, write applications or declarations, and/or submit/file in documents. The issue of legal literacy is not just an issue particular to the Romani community; this is something many citizens of our country face on an everyday basis.

– If you do have data on thousands of Romanis living in Ukraine without IDs—that is, are actually outside the system—how many that would be, as a percentage of the total number of Ukrainian Romanis? Is there even official statistics on this? At least within Transcarpathia.

– Let me be honest. Our most recent National Census took place in 2001. As per that Census, there were not more than 40,000 Romanis living in Ukraine. That was it. As of today, NGOs estimate the total number as somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000. Now, that makes a +/- 200,000 discrepancy. And then came war. According to data obtained by civil society, approximately 100,000 Romanis have been internally displaced from Kharkiv Province ONLY. A portion of them moved to the Western Ukraine; some fled abroad. I can only tell you this: one of the settlements we visited has 2,000 to 3,000 inhabitants. The largest one had a population of 10,000.

– Some 10 to 15 years ago, Romani-related issues were almost non-existent on the public agenda; the society was not discussing them at all. Nowadays, people are learning about the condition of Romanis, about their rights. What is it that has brought about these changes? Is that perhaps Ukraine’s reaction to the EU demands?

– But let us agree that life in Ukraine has changed quite dramatically. The first major change took place 10 years ago; the second turning point happened 3 years ago. Protection of the rights of ethnic minorities is one of the most important topics on the agenda with respect to Ukraine’s accession to the EU. The matter of our unity has first come appeared on the agenda in 2014; the second time, in 2022, was more crucial.

All of us got together. Just like everyone else, they stood up to defend their country, same as every one of us. They are an integral part of the Ukrainian society.

There are 134 ethnic groups in Ukraine and three indigenous peoples. Let us compare us with Germany: in Germany, there are four representatives of ethnic minorities. As far as Ukraine is concerned, it is a multi-ethnic country so the matter випадку України, so the matter of non-supporting ethnic minorities should be ruled out altogether.

At our office, we have a separate structural subdivision taking care of the rights of ethnic minorities working for a department the activity of which I co-ordinate. 

In the photo: Oleksandr Osipov - Representative of the Ombudsman for Equal Rights and Freedoms, National Minorities, Political and Religious Views. Photo provided by the Ombudsman's Office

– Ukraine boasts a well-developed institute of advisors. There are youth consultants, too. Do we need a special advisor on Romani issues? How do you reckon?

– We have an initiative in place as of today. It consists in founding or opening a special department which would tend to the protection of rights of representatives of the Romani ethnic minority. We cannot state that this would be “positive discrimination” but yes, this would be a separate structural subdivision within the framework of a department. We do plan to set up such a department which would tend to Romani matters.

– As far as I can understand, such an initiative might be a response to the number of appeals and petitions pertaining to violation of Romani rights. What is the general dynamics of queries, appeals, petitions and which regions are the most active in this process?

– It goes without saying that most issues arising with regard to representatives of the Romani ethnic minority come from Transcarpathia and Odesa Provinces. Issues pertaining to the Romani ethnic minority, however, are resolved in another matter.

We categorise appeals we receive by ethnic minorities. For instance, last year (2023), we have received 454 notifications of discrimination, miscellaneous violations of the principle of equal rights in various realms of social interaction. In the nine months of the current year, we have so far received 777 such notifications, 28 of which were ethnic-coloured.

Alas, the war has brought with it a number of individual cases which should be tackled here and now. Laws are not always written in a way to bring each and every possible situation to normality.

In order to be heard, one needs to speak first, to address someone. This is the main thing. You are just not going to receive something suddenly, out of the blue.

If a person, say, wants to receive medical aid but that person keeps sitting at home instead of going to a health care facility to seek help, then where is the actual infringement of law? A person just did not go seek medical help, did not consult a doctor. If a person did seek medical aid while having a right to do so and yet was refused medical aid, then, of course, we are going to act in accordance with the legislation and demand that the right to receive medical aid be honoured.

– We often talk about discrimination in our society. That said, as far as I am aware, not a single Ukrainian law clearly stipulates which actions or what kind of an attitude towards a fellow human being constitute discrimination and which do not. How can one determine where the limit lies between discrimination and, say, common rudeness?

– Mere passing of a law is only half of the job—nay, even less than a half. Next we need to have a mechanism in place to train people engaged—state authorities in particular, in order to separate matters and get a better understanding of them. Because there is a very thin line indeed. And for us—the Office—this, too, is a brand new challenge. If and when we have the right to put together administrative protocols on discrimination matters, we shall then be able to assess and establish if something did or did not constitute discrimination.

– On the one hand, I would like to finish this part of our conversation on a positive note; on the other hand, I would like to urge people, representatives of ethnic minorities and citizens of Ukraine in general to become and be aware of their rights and to feel free to address the Ombudsman and his representatives, should any of your rights be infringed. How can one address the Office, by the way?

– Any citizen of Ukraine as well as any foreigner staying/residing within Ukrainian territory has a right to address the Ombudsman if he considers his right to be violated. You can address us in person by writing an appeal at the Office under the following address: 21/8 Instytutska Street, Kyiv City. You can also use the Ombudsman’s phone hotline:  0 800 501 720 and +38 044 299 74 08 or email us at hotline@ombudsman.gov.ua, describing the situation therein. Each and every appeal is examined, each and every appeal is responded to. So if a right has indeed been violated, any necessary action will be taken to rectify the situation.

Whenever you see an appeal by a citizen, whenever you are addressed by a person, you wish to view the law through the prism of a human being, not view a human being through the prism of law.

The greatest victory is, perhaps, the small one: when a person receives something he or she is entitled to.

You can listen to the audio version of this conversation in our PODCASTS section.